Describing The Proof-Based-Faith Process Using The Scientific Method pt. 2
(TBO's Note - For an explanation of these two posts, read my note for part one. From that departure point, KTC went from "what you describe has nothing to do with the scientific process, and everything to do with the Big Questions. Science isn't about the Big Questions yet"* to the following...)
KTC - You said “- What would be the point of life if not for the journey and struggle to get the things you want out of it?”
To which I say, “There *is* no “point” to life. None. It’s just something that happened. There’s no guiding principle. None. We can try to make our own meaning up as we go along, and we do – we all do – but there’s actually no point. No endgame. No Big Reason we’re all here.”
And that’s a pretty fundamental difference. It’s way beyond arguments about who is “rational” and whatnot. I mean, we’re all rational folks. We just have a HUGE fundamental difference in the way we see the world.
It's funny that you picked one answer out of the three I gave. Here, let me cut/paste that bit for further parsing:
Why? So many different answers, and I'll give a few:
- What would be the point of life if not for the journey and struggle to get the things you want out of it? It'd be pointless if it was all just easy wish fulfillment.
- Just like birth and death, cause and effect, light and dark, yin and yang are all part of their same individual coins, so is victory and struggle.
- In an answer that ought to sound familiar to the rational among us: It just is that way.
Note that I didn't say that there was any one answer that's more valid than another. Frankly, all three are valid and applicable to the question of why the universe supplies both a path and obstacles to your desired goal(s).
Also note I said nothing about an "End Point." I don't mention heaven, because there is none. Nirvana exists in this place, in this state, in our current lives, at this exact moment, right now; but so does hell, so does rapture, so does hunger, etc.
I don't mention reincarnation, because I can't prove it, though as a theory it has both merit, logic and its own attractiveness, and I believe it to be quite likely...I can't prove it, though, so when I die, my particles dissipate back into NMRK or star stuff or what have you. What happens after that, I simply don't know.
Similarly with "Big Reason." "To live a fulfilled life and to emerge victorious over your obstacles and circumstances in this crazy fucked up world," while a massive paraphrasing that leaves out huge amounts of Buddhist philosophy, it is about as Big as it gets in Nichiren Buddhism, along with "help others do the same."
Nichiren Buddhism is a philosophy that's focused on the individual and in the here and now...
But let's take this to a secular level...Even if there is no capital 'p' Point to life, and happiness, sadness, fear, courage, ambition, goals, etc., are just human constructs, then we should do something with these constructs, shouldn't we? If for no other reason, we could at least give our lives purpose (not "Purpose," but purpose). Otherwise, it's a recipe for stagnation, and fleeting feelings of satisfaction, lack of compassion and empathy...
"If we're only on this trip once, and it all means nothing, may as well make it count in some way," is not the approach to life I take, but I don't see anything wrong with that general approach, do you?
*In response to this, I mentioned Ikeda's dialogues with prominent scientists, the title of which now escapes me and can't find in the SGI Bookstore.
KTC - You said “- What would be the point of life if not for the journey and struggle to get the things you want out of it?”
To which I say, “There *is* no “point” to life. None. It’s just something that happened. There’s no guiding principle. None. We can try to make our own meaning up as we go along, and we do – we all do – but there’s actually no point. No endgame. No Big Reason we’re all here.”
And that’s a pretty fundamental difference. It’s way beyond arguments about who is “rational” and whatnot. I mean, we’re all rational folks. We just have a HUGE fundamental difference in the way we see the world.
It's funny that you picked one answer out of the three I gave. Here, let me cut/paste that bit for further parsing:
Why? So many different answers, and I'll give a few:
- What would be the point of life if not for the journey and struggle to get the things you want out of it? It'd be pointless if it was all just easy wish fulfillment.
- Just like birth and death, cause and effect, light and dark, yin and yang are all part of their same individual coins, so is victory and struggle.
- In an answer that ought to sound familiar to the rational among us: It just is that way.
Note that I didn't say that there was any one answer that's more valid than another. Frankly, all three are valid and applicable to the question of why the universe supplies both a path and obstacles to your desired goal(s).
Also note I said nothing about an "End Point." I don't mention heaven, because there is none. Nirvana exists in this place, in this state, in our current lives, at this exact moment, right now; but so does hell, so does rapture, so does hunger, etc.
I don't mention reincarnation, because I can't prove it, though as a theory it has both merit, logic and its own attractiveness, and I believe it to be quite likely...I can't prove it, though, so when I die, my particles dissipate back into NMRK or star stuff or what have you. What happens after that, I simply don't know.
Similarly with "Big Reason." "To live a fulfilled life and to emerge victorious over your obstacles and circumstances in this crazy fucked up world," while a massive paraphrasing that leaves out huge amounts of Buddhist philosophy, it is about as Big as it gets in Nichiren Buddhism, along with "help others do the same."
Nichiren Buddhism is a philosophy that's focused on the individual and in the here and now...
But let's take this to a secular level...Even if there is no capital 'p' Point to life, and happiness, sadness, fear, courage, ambition, goals, etc., are just human constructs, then we should do something with these constructs, shouldn't we? If for no other reason, we could at least give our lives purpose (not "Purpose," but purpose). Otherwise, it's a recipe for stagnation, and fleeting feelings of satisfaction, lack of compassion and empathy...
"If we're only on this trip once, and it all means nothing, may as well make it count in some way," is not the approach to life I take, but I don't see anything wrong with that general approach, do you?
*In response to this, I mentioned Ikeda's dialogues with prominent scientists, the title of which now escapes me and can't find in the SGI Bookstore.
posted by the beige one at 10:19 PM
3 Comments:
I thought that Buddhism was about (among other things) freeing yourself from desire - not learning how to get what you want, but rather learning that you already have everything you need. Where does that leave things like motivation and ambition? I'm not sure, but I certainly think that ambition for it's own sake is not necessarily a good thing. Also, from my understanding of the Gospels of Buddha (admittedly read in an English translation) The Buddha explicitly says that reincarnation is not about an individual soul being reborn intact, but it's actually about the "Energy" you leave behind and how that may coalesce into a new being - or with other "Energies" into many other beings. Usage Note: By "Energy" I don't mean in the scientific sense, and many, if not most scientists, from what I understand, abhor this usage of the word. What I mean is more akin to the wake of causality you leave behind you as you pass through the universe. Your actions cause effects, and those effects cause effects and so on. This is also known as another term - "Karma." Also, I didn't put the word energy (or karma) in quotes to suggest I was quoting The Buddha, but just to denote it's special usage.
Well anyway, that's my opinions/thoughts on the matter, for what it's worth.
ytramo,
Much to filter here, and may take a few posts to reply. I just noticed what time it was.
But I'll touch on the first aspect of your reply, that Buddhism is about freeing yourself from desire.
What you describe here is ascribable to Zen Buddhism, which isn't what the Nichiren's Buddhism is about.
Where the two schools differ, on the matter on "earthly desires," is that NB espouses that earthly desires are enlightenment, and that the process of turning one into the other is essential to achieve the desired goal.
Ambition turns negative when it is used to the denigration of life, in whatever form that may take, from personal privation through Dick Cheney to outright massacre, with all possible cosmic (used in both the Buddhist and Marvel Comics senses) permutations in between.
More to come.
I'd also like to chime in and point out that there really aren't any "Gospels of Buddha" . . . or rather, that there are so many hundreds of sutras that one might call gospel, and no Nicene Council (arbitrarily) separating the canonical from the apocryphal, that no such definition has any meaning.
I don't think that ambition is antithetical to an inner condition of abundance. That seems like a binary assumption that makes more sense in more theistic constructs.
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